ForgotPassword?
Sign Up
Search this Topic:
Forum Jump
Posts: 11
01/08/10 01:16 PM
Posts: 682
01/09/10 02:53 AM
3 players hit 400 HR and had 300 SB. Mays, Bonds, Dawson. He's a HOF'er.
Posts: 184
01/09/10 10:39 AM
Posts: 2531
01/09/10 10:48 AM
rjb182 wrote: Anyway, one MVP award doesn't mean much for Hall purposes, or we'd be putting Zoilo Versalles in the Hall of Fame...
01/09/10 10:51 AM
powersackers wrote: I can't stand Hall of Fame snobs.
01/09/10 11:13 AM
I think Jesse Barfield might have a quibble with "the best RF arm of his generation." He did have 154 RF assists, the most of any right fielder from 1975-95, and a reputation as a cannon. Cory Snyder had about the same OA total as Dawson in far less playing time, and he had a great-arm rep, too.
Posts: 471
01/09/10 12:17 PM
What Cheer Wombat wrote: I think Jesse Barfield might have a quibble with "the best RF arm of his generation." He did have 154 RF assists, the most of any right fielder from 1975-95, and a reputation as a cannon. Cory Snyder had about the same OA total as Dawson in far less playing time, and he had a great-arm rep, too. And Dwight Evans had 157 outfield assists, all but 2 in RF, from 1972 through 1991. I bought one season of SOM back during Evans' prime, I forget which year. I don't remember how SOM's system worked in detail but I remember that outfielder arms were rated on a scale, and the maximum possible rating was specified in the rules. I think it was 5, but can't remember for sure. As I recall the arm rating was used to modify the number for determining the outcome of attempts to take extra bases. What I distinctly remember, though, is that whatever the maximum arm rating was according to the rules, Evans' card for that year had a rating that was actually one notch higher than the supposed maximum. If it had been almost any other outfielder I would have automatically assumed it was a typo, but given Evans' reputation I wondered if the SOM folks had just decided that their usual scale didn't give them enough room to rate Evans' arm.
01/09/10 01:01 PM
01/09/10 02:29 PM
01/09/10 03:03 PM
Posts: 9161
01/09/10 07:24 PM
powersackers wrote: I can't stand Hall of Fame snobs. 3 players hit 400 HR and had 300 SB. Mays, Bonds, Dawson. He's a HOF'er. Not to mention a ROY, MVP and the best RF arm of his generation. Sabermetrics should be left out of Hall consideration. There's more to baseball than percentages.
Posts: 857
01/09/10 08:25 PM
... With the advent of the internet and the coalescence of passionate, enthusiastic baseball fans who like to quantify everything, that definition [MVP = High RBI Slugger on Playoff Team] has come under fire, and rightfully so. As a result, every fall, we see the same articles pop up, just with different names. Stop me if you've read this sequence before. Beat Writer: "Joe Ribbi proves he's the MVP with another clutch home run. Where would Team Win-All-The-Time be without him?" Sabermetric Blogger: "Look at this ridiculous article about Ribbi being the MVP. What a moron. Deosn't Beat Writer know that Sam Shortstop is the one getting on base all the time?" Beat Writer: "I'm at the games, I travel with the team, I talk to the guys in the clubhouse, and we all agree - it's Joe Ribbi. Sometimes, you just have to realize there's more to the game than numbers." Sabermetric Blogger: "When does this fool retire? If I had a subscription to the paper, I would cancel!" Reasonable people take swipes at each other, bridges are burned, Joe Ribbi wins the MVP, and life goes on. Rinse and repeat, every September. In the end, it isn't an argument about baseball. It's an argument about the perspective of how the game is seen through various lenses, and in many ways, a disagreement about the progress of a generation. Most of us see baseball in a way that is very different from how our fathers and grandfathers saw it, which is not unlike the generational gap in almost every other area of your life. Does your dad use twitter? Is your grandpa a frequent visitor to the local tapas bar? Do you yell at them for their "ignorance"? .... With the invention of the internet (thanks Al!), we don't need to look back through a list of MVP awards to remember who was good way back when. We have baseball-reference for that. History isn't recorded in trophies, but in data and stories, and we now have the capability to store a massive amount of both. No matter who wins the AL MVP award this season, we're going to have a ridiculous amount of information about what happened on the field in 2009, and we'll be able to show our kids and their kids just how much fun it was to watch Joe Mauer play baseball. The history of the game, as told by us, won't be changed one iota by how the BBWAA votes in six weeks. .... Twitter isn't dying because people over 50 aren't using it, and Tapas bars are doing just fine without an early bird special. Mauer's legacy, and the history of the game, will be just fine without Tyler Keper's vote, too. We've got better ways of capturing what happened on the field than through an award based on an esoteric argument about the definition of a vague word. Let them vote for whoever they want. I don't care.
Beat Writer: "Joe Ribbi proves he's the MVP with another clutch home run. Where would Team Win-All-The-Time be without him?" Sabermetric Blogger: "Look at this ridiculous article about Ribbi being the MVP. What a moron. Deosn't Beat Writer know that Sam Shortstop is the one getting on base all the time?" Beat Writer: "I'm at the games, I travel with the team, I talk to the guys in the clubhouse, and we all agree - it's Joe Ribbi. Sometimes, you just have to realize there's more to the game than numbers." Sabermetric Blogger: "When does this fool retire? If I had a subscription to the paper, I would cancel!"
01/09/10 10:10 PM
The Hall's motto is "Preserving History, Honoring Excellence, Connecting Generations". Anyone care to define "Excellence" in terms of a Major League Baseball player? Top 36 all time in HR's = Check Top 34 all time in RBI = Check Top 24 all time in XBH = Check Top 146 in SB's = Check 2% to 57% better than the average league OFer for 15 straight years (adjusted for park) = Check Top 7 all time power/speed numbers = Check - A rare combination of power and speed (don't even put Campy or Burroghs in the same Zip code, as some of you tried) oh, and the one that matters 77% of the BBWA think the above put him in. By HOF snob I simply meant people who rain on the parade of a man who undoubtedly put together an Excellent career. I personally don't understand why. I am happy for him and anyone who gets in.
01/09/10 11:57 PM
Posts: 567
01/10/10 10:20 AM
Posts: 38
01/10/10 10:52 AM
Posts: 128
01/10/10 11:01 AM
01/10/10 11:08 AM
Sabermetrics should be left out of Hall consideration.
Top 7 all time power/speed numbers = Check - A rare combination of power and speed
01/10/10 12:17 PM
Posts: 601
01/10/10 02:18 PM
powersackers wrote: By HOF snob I simply meant people who rain on the parade of a man who undoubtedly put together an Excellent career. I personally don't understand why. I am happy for him and anyone who gets in.
Share This