jfish261: How many employees do you have? I wasn't aware diesel was one.

TedRoeth: Diesel has been tremendously helpful with tech issues.

Jeff in Western WA: why did board ever go YUKU anyway???

TedRoetht least yuku has a pretty good search function.

diesel sall ezboard forums were/are being moved to yuku. We didn't really have an option not to.

TedRoethke: has anyone asked about the BP thing? will projections be based on PECOTA in the future, eg?

jfish26101: some people were asking about that on the Imagine Sports board, they were asking for specific stats to be included/added

DMBDayne: The deal is a good one, both for PC and online. There are 2 reasons for this chat. One, somebody posted that we don't communicate. Well, I don't agree, so here we are.

JB50 :I appreciate the chance, but you see, to me I'm not talking about informal chats, especially when they are ad hoc and unscheduled

DMBDayne :fine. We have sent out a newsletter fairly regularly and we have posted something regularly.

Jeff in Western WA :last one when, I see 7/07 on the site???

gamer58 :I haven't had one since last June I think

DMBDayne : Well, there was one last fall. Apparently it didn't make the forum.

JB50 : but after 18 months we still have nothing solid about the direction of the standalone game

JB50 : we are left to infer, to read the tea leaves

DMBDayne : Because I can't give you anything solid.

DMBDayne : 2 points

1. To modify the simulation model itself, we are still dependent on Tom.

JB50 : you understand, i hope, that the words you used when you bought the company were that tom was going to be freed to spend all his time on the standalone game

gamer58 :you can say the game is done beyond 9

DMBDayne : We only have so much of Tom's time. The Red Sox have the rest.

DMBDayne : Since the acquisition, most of the time we have had of Tom has gone to 9b, '06 and '07 season disks and proj disks. 9b took much more time than planned.

gamer58 :we could get a patch and some seasons before the years out

gamer58 :you mean c

DMBDayne :both, but much of the work of 9c was done by Luke

gamer58 : the sac flies in the late 20's was broke

DMBDayne :now, there are some things that we can do without Tom, and we have explored options there. Alas, the DMB code is old.

gamer58 :but solid

DMBDayne :Very solid

JB50 :but we all see the amount of attention given to the online game, while there has been nothing but a patch for the standalone game. Surely you understand how this looks

DMBDayne :Perhaps, but we have the people and skills to do things for the online game. Here's the bottom line, guys. We have the people and skills to do the programming on the online game, but we're not doing any improvements there that you don't already have in the PC game. We are dependent on Tom to change the PC game engine.

wmboling : So mainly any changes are how things are done outside of the engine now?

DMBDayne :Tom and I just talked last week that when he gets done with his pre-season work for the Sox, he might have some time to start working with me on a v10

DMBDayne :boling is right

gamer58 :I still say patches is all that is needed. old code ot not much of what is needed can be worked in on the current basis

DMBDayne : there are no changes in the online game engine - online game is getting web features OUTSIDE of the engine.

Jeff in Western WA : programming right patches can't handle a lot of code me thinks, still a "nice patch" in '08 would be "acceptable" IMHO, I'd even PAY for it!

gamer58 :I would as well

DMBDayne :guys, I know you would pay for it. Do you think we wouldn't do it and sell it if we could?

jfish26101 :well Dayne is saying Tom has agreed to work on 10 but needs the time...we just need a little more patience

DMBDayne :bingo

wmboling :I wouldn't want change just for changes sake though. Do it right and take the time needed.

DMBDayne : That's right - we don't want to do change for change sake.

Jeff in Western WA : ok, so Tom has to work on V10, understood, so nay chance y'all can work 9d in meantime?

gamer58 : then release some old seasons, something,

DMBDayne :WE ARE

JB50 :but we can't be certain what amount of time Tom is going to have, or when?

DMBDayne :no

JB50 :OK, that's forthright

DMBDayne :If that is not enough for you, I'm sorry.

wmboling :Give Wheeler a raise then!! Get him to work

gamer58 :I say d fix the sac flies some more pbp

Jeff in Western WA :CM logic...#1

gamer58 :& yes get Jim a raise & send him back to his old seasons

DMBDayne :Jim is on it.

wmboling :I know, I was joking.

Daniel Evensen :Yeah, the CM logic needs the most work, I agree.

JB50 : If Tom is unable to devote significant time to the PC game, than that's it then?

DMBDayne :No. Our goal is to transfer enough knowledge from Tom to Luke so that Luke can do a lot of the programming. That is why we hired Diesel. To free Luke up.

JB50 :OK. And I must admit you've been saying that all along

SPBJT :So Luke will be handling some or part of the V10 programming?

DMBDayne :yes

jfish26101 :Dayne, I think people think this is a larger operation than it is. I mean it sounds like you only have 2-3 potential people to do all the stuff the community is asking for

elkhartlynn: I think that very few people understand the intracacies of the programming. Both from a knowledge standpoint and a timing standpoint.

wmboling :I was as doom and gloom as the next guy until Luke said straight out the PC game will be staying around. It is a major undertaking to learn any program, we'll have to be patient.

Jeff in Western WA : that did help, knowing standalone stays...

DMBDayne : Why on earth would we kill the PC game? Where did we ever say that?

jfish26101 : yeah, my first major was computer programming and it isn't fun

Daniel Evensen : True -- the company never said that. That was another man's conspiracy theory

Jeff in Western WA : think it wss conjecture and 90% of the energy going online..

wmboling : You didn't, but also didn't say it was staying and people ran with it.

DMBDayne : Now, here's a question I'd like to ask. Why all of the hostility towards the online game?

Daniel Evensen : If I remember, that started back when we first heard about Dayne buying the company.

JB50 :because people are afraid of being locked into it

Daniel Evensen : Dayne, I think people associate the live game with fantasy baseball, not the DMB simulation. Just my feeling.

wmboling :IMO, just a different community, plus what JB said.

TedRoethke :i think people see it as the sibling that get's all the attention

JB50 :plus inevitably it will mean more expense

Daniel Evensen :That is, it's not simulated baseball. We like having the cards in our hand, or having the seasons on our own computer, etc.

jfish26101 :more expense?

JB50 :If you're like me, I'd rather own something and know I have it rather than have to subscribe to something and pay month after month. Once I buy, I own, on the PC game

DMBDayne : But you already own it. The online game is no threat to that.

JB50 : We don't know that...

Jeff in Western WA : good point, but, we want it to be "better" all the time (supported)...

Daniel Evensen : No, he's right -- for example, if you bought Version 8, the fact that Version 9 was released doesn't mean you can't still use Version 8

JB50 : What I mean to say is, that sure, v9 we own, but we may not own the future of DMB as something we can purchase outright

sposfan1 : I have to say that I was leery of DMB live, but I think that was more a knee jerk reaction. it definitely has potential

Daniel Evensen :DMB Live sounds good to me, though I haven't had the time to use it.

DMBDayne : OK, another question.How many of you are aware that there has been some form of DMB online since the mid-1990s?

Daniel Evensen :The only form of DMB online I knew of was people using third-party software to set up primitive net games.

JB50 :you mean head to head netplay

DMBDayne :And, by the way, since the late 1990s, online revenues have been much greater than PC revenues.

DMBDayne : NO, NOT neplay. Would you like some history?

JB50 : yes

Daniel Evensen :I'm up for a history lesson, sure.

wmboling :see, that may scare people, if people think that since the online game makes more money. GO for it.

DMBDayne :In 1993, Tom built a version of DMB for STATS. It became the engine for the Bill James Classic Baseball game. That game was played by mail, fax, and dial up. in 1999, STATS put it online as "Diamond Legends" (Bill James was no longer involved). STATS would not pay Tom for the use of the DMB name. So, you probably never knew. In 2001, STATS did a partnership with ESPN That was "ESPN Classic Game". The revenues of DL and ESPN far eclipsed the PC game. And Tom's license fees from those games was a KEY portion of DMB's profits over the years.

Daniel Evensen :I believe that DL / ESPN brought in more revenue, no doubt. I heard of those games before I ever heard of DMB, to be honest.

DMBDayne :I was a customer of those games.

wmboling :and you liked it so much, you bought the company!

DMBDayne :sort of. Once I learned more about DMB, I realized that STATS did not do the game justice.

Jeff in Western WA : I imagine DMB standalone would be a BIG $$ loser by iteself...

JB50 : I have trouble being interested in online play because (1) I pretty much play solo. (2) I would LOVE to play online head to head, but coordinating schedules is nearly impossible. I don't see how to overcome that

DMBDayne :hang on I'll get there

DMBDayne : So, I went to Tom. I asked him if his deal with STATS was exclusive. he said no. I told him of my vision of making DMB into something bigger. And he replied, Let's do it. and this company was born. 2 things I'd like you to understand. 2 points for you all to take away, if nothing else. 1. There has ALWAYS been an online component of DMB. It never killed the PC game before, and you weren't forced to play the online game.

wmboling :As I said a bit earlier, I think some of the fear some have may stem from the fact the online game is the main moneymaker and are afraid the pc game might be dropped because of that. Now we know it won't be, so we can drop the being afraid stuff, right?

DMBDayne :bingo

DMBDayne : point 2. The PC game has ALWAYS been dependent on online games, and vice versa. ALWAYS. Do you see what I'm saying?

JB50 :yes

wmboling :You need us, we need you.

DMBDayne :ka-ching

DMBDayne :We are all in this together. And it has always been that way, even though no one told you.

sposfan1 :The truth is that chats like these, or periodic updates go a long way to quelling the fear.people fear the unknown.

wmboling : I know I feel better. Now if we can just get people to realize Rome wasn't/isn't built in a day, we can wait for new stuff

DMBDayne :Well, it didn't hit me until last weekend that you all did not know what a key role the online stuff has played in DMB's past. So, now I see why you all think this is such a big change. when, in fact, it's not.

sposfan1 : bingo!

DMBDayne :But how would you know that? Tom didn't broadcast it.

3rdandKing :If the money is in the on-line game, then I think it's fair to say that the PC game has to take a back seat, right? (I have no problem with that)

JB50 :interesting, and definitely worth having communicated

DMBDayne :Yes, I've already drafted a post with all of this. But I just got impulsive and decided to do a chat.

JB50 :thanks for doing that

DMBDayne :Here's the thing....

Jeff in Western WA :still, as we wait for Tom and his time, which WILL be limited and take a while, can "some" expectations be met in '08 w/ 9d????? Yes,I do see that...

TedRoethke :Thanks for being so candid, Dayne, and for taking the time here. The online game is adding some stuff likely to attract stand-aloners (e.g., live play, projection disk players, play against the computer). Will we be able to play online with, say, the current season's teams versus the CM, much the way we do solo with the PC?

DMBDayne :Yes, Ted.

TedRoethke :Sweet. Thank you.

Jeff in Western WA :Is the DMB PC game website gonna be kept "active" and updated...and newsletters posted BTW??

wmboling :oh yeah, the DMB website stink

DMBDayne :I know. But you want an honest answer about that , too?

wmboling : sure

DMBDayne :the proper thing for this company to do with its resources is ONE website.

wmboling :I agree

JB50 :I can understand that. It's not the website itself, so much as the relative lack of attention, that becomes a lightning rod for PC game fans

sposfan1 :the cross promoting of the products can only help both of them'

DMBDayne :guys, the old site looks terrible.

sposfan1 :yes it does

DMBDayne :it HURTS the game.

sposfan1 :but it's functional and easy to navigate. I'm not saying stay with it forever, but in the meantime...

DMBDayne :It's functional, but imagine yourself a NEW customer prospect coming to the site. You would think, "wow, this site looks like it was built in 1995. I wonder if this company is still in business."

sposfan1 :honestly, there's a better chance i stay with the game with the old site than with the new one.

wmboling :There was some good info on it though. It can be saved.

DMBDayne :OK, one final word on the site. It is really not worth our spend precious resources to improve the current DMB website. The proper answer is to combine the PC and online sites. We are all one family.

sposfan1 :no issues there, and we appreciate your candidness

DMBDayne :We are all in this together but I have been hesitant to combine them because of the hostility towards IS and the online game.

JB50 :but part of the problem has been the PC gamers feeling a lack of representation and attention if we find ourselves being represented on the one web site, fine

sposfan1 :I think that if we post something explaining the reason in straight terms and then apply it properly, there should be little or no legitimate backlash

DMBDayne :Well, it's a lot easier to be heard if you live in the same house, eh?

wmboling :Hopefully , you can see things like that hurt our feelings so to speak. We were feeling left out, but now we can see how we're in this together as you said.

JB50 :agreed, Elan

jfish26101 :I can tell you one thing Dayne, I really don't like the board on the IM site

DMBDayne :agreed, fish. We'll be changing that.

DMBDayne :We all need to live in the same house. You can have your own room if you want.

sposfan1 :i want my own WING!

DMBDayne :we will expand the sposfan empire!

TedRoethke :we'll give you the attic, spos.

sposfan1 , now you're talking

wmboling :Just don't pay him, he'd get a really swelled head

Jeff in Western WA : even the "info" from the old site moved to the new would be nice, and UPDATE it as news comes...!

DMBDayne :yes, will do. we are creating a DM library on the IS site

DMBDayne : Baseball Prospectus (BP). We will be producing new disks with BP

jfish26101 :they will be helping with the projections?

DMBDayne :yes

TedRoethke :very nice

DMBDayne :It will be a joint effort... we help them, they help.

jfish26101 :so they are going to try and make them more realistic with some of their features/stats?

wmboling :more research can only help

rcm3739 :New disks for only projections or past seasons or (god help us) futher into the future seasons?

jfish26101 :sounds like all

DMBDayne :Combining DMB's simulation tech with BP's research can only make both better.

rcm3739 :so you're giving BP your splits data!

DMBDayne :and vice versa

rcm3739 :(which they can get from Retrosheet pretty much)

DMBDayne :I think of Tom as Obi Wan and Luke as... Luke Skywalker!

DMBDayne :And some people think I'm Darth Vader, but that's another story.

DMBJim w/o hair. *ducks*

DMBDayne :more on BP. BP will be promoting us, and we will promote them

wmboling :That will help.

DMBDayne :Imagine customers will get discounts on BP subscriptions, and vice versa and you are Imagine customers.

rcm3739 :that's nice

wmboling :cool!

rcm3739 :I'm also a BP customer for longer.

wmboling :do they have a pay web site too?

DMBDayne :In fact, we need to get away from pc vs. online customers. We're all in this together. Everyone is an Imagine Sporst customer.

TedRoethke :$39 per year and worth it

wmboling :discount on that too?

DMBDayne :yes, discount on that

wmboling : very nice

dmbluke :sorry for jumping in like this but i have a real good example how the online and pc games help each other

DMBDayne :who are you?

dmbluke :i did the bulk of the work on the engine side for DML H2H. In order to support the h2h game, i had to come up with something pretty nifty. i had had an idea on how to do something really cool on the pc side but never had the chance or the expertise to give it a shot. my idea was a perfect fit for the h2h game so i implemented it and it works like a champ. now i'll be able to use the technology in a future version of dmb. the pc game got all that technology for free so to speak and no, i can't divulge what i did or how it will be applied to the pc game

wmboling :very good, and Jeff, yes , we get support, but we will have to be patient for updates, versions and that sort of thing. The engine is what it is basically.

Jeff in Western WA :ok, Lus there a vision that makes the curent PC game someday played "only" online..I'm "ok" w/ that if price is relative to disks today...

dmbluke :another benefit of having me do most of the engine work on the h2h game is that i picked up that much more knowledge of the game engine which is the same

Jeff in Western WA :I think competition drives the updating of teh engine (patches/versions) to keep customers though, best customer is your LASt one, I learned that in my businesses long ago...i

DMBDayne :We will have an option to let you play the game online for free. if you buy the disks.

dmbluke :the cool thing about the feature is that it has nothing to do with playing h2h! remember, i'm just on the game engine side. our java programmers do the real h2h stuff

TedRoethke :thanks for your time and answers, dayne

DMBDayne :The only way "the game is going away" is if the online games fail.

wmboling :right

elkhartlynn :Thanks for the information and the patience to get it delivered.

DMBDayne :because the online and PC games have ALWAYS shared costs.

DMBDayne :if they PC game does not have the online game to share costs...

Jeff in Western WA :provided thought it's profitable

wmboling :DMB is the best out there, that's for sure. Reputation means a lot

DMBDayne :it does.Which is what I could not understand about the online games before we came along.

wmboling :Which is another reason for me and others to basically shut up and help rather than crying about things.

DMBDayne :STATS did not think the DMB name was worth promoting, I guess. Maybe they just wanted to promote their own brand.

wmboling :I'm sure it was that. STATS is a big deal too.

DMBDayne :But the first thing I said to Tom was that I wanted to use the name and would pay him for it.

Jeff in Western WA :branding is nothing more than recognition/loyalty, so either would work..

DMBDayne :who knows?

DMBDayne :That was then.

Jeff in Western WA :and now?

DMBDayne :And now you see us plastering the Diamond Mind name everywhere we can.

wmboling :With ESPN and now BP both, real baseball fans will see us more than ever

DMBDayne :hopefully

Jeff in Western WA :the NAME is a VERY recognized one as a "premium" in the biz...keep marketing it!

wmboling :How about DMB Shirts and hats? Seriously

DMBDayne :hmmm good idea

wmboling :APBA just did it.

ATCretiree :I'd wear them!

wmboling :I think they used Cafepress.com . You 're right there.

Jeff in Western WA :Dayne, what if any medium is the DMB name promoted??

Jeff in Western WA :So Luke, hows that "pickin Toms brain" goin?? Lots here awaiting you to write 9d and start on V10.

DMBDayne :last call for questions.

DMBDayne :ok, good night, all.

dmbluke :ok, picking tom's brains, i did a lot of that working on the engine for the h2h game

Jeff in Western WA :thought so, can you see that going into the CM logic that's been talked about for 9d, similar to 9c...?

dmbluke :i had a chance to study some aspects of the CM. as you can guess, it's one of the most complicated parts of the code

Jakebrothers :

hi guys - sorry to interupt - any1 receive 2008 via email today ?

dmbluke :tom's going over the last test results now. he likes what he's seeing so far. after he gives the thumbs up, pat will start emailing

Jakebrothers :got ya - starting to worry, seems this year is unlike all others - with the release date et all

dmbluke :it just didn't make business sense to have two releases like we did in the past

Jeff in Western WA :my old days are this summer, when I started DMB, Luke "sold me" through various e-mails of what my goal was w/ game, so far (almost one season) so good, though I'm seeking CM logic, etc., improvements...

dmbluke :as for BP, i know both sides are excited about doing some research/simming projects together. i am picking up a lot of knowledge on how the cm works by handling some of the online tech support. someone will write in and ask why the cm did something. because we have access to more game data on the online side, i request the game codes to see how the cm arrived at a decision as opposed to someone asking about the cm on the pc side and i have no way to review the situation

Jeff in Western WA :can you see using some of that for the many requested "lil changes" and CM updates, similar to 9c, which was VERY comprehensive?

dmbluke :sure. for example, i'd like to do some work on double-switches which is more of a problem on the online game because the rosters are so loaded. that's not as big a problem on the pc side but i know gamers would like more control over that

Jeff in Western WA :tha would be one improvement, 2) PH logic, especially in last innings when Limit Bench is "on" and relief pitcher logic would help too...

dmbluke :there's another feature that we need for an online project which i've wanted to add to the pc side but there wasn't much justification for it. sorry i can't divulge but it's now more likely to be added in the next release

Jeff in Western WA :I've had "oddity" lin mid innings, a teams #1 starting (Carlton) pitcher called in relief to pitch to MY pitcher (Seaver) who bats opposite side BTW, walks him, then gets relived after 5 pitches..??

dmbluke :frankly i don't know what to do about PHing when LBPT is turned on. That's probably something tom will have to take the lead on. i know he's experimented on it in the past

Jeff in Western WA :Cmlogic, PH logic, double switching, "seeing ahead 5 days for starters before choosing reliever" all CM improvements to be made IMHO...

dmbluke :now i'm not aware of that carlton situation you described. this is an example where i'd have a leg up if it had been played online and i could examine the game codes and game state

Jeff in Western WA :yes, when it's 8th 9th inning and trailing there shold be a "way" for CM to "look beyond LB"..some output that overrides..

dmbluke :what you can do for me in cases like that is do a Save Game and Exit which takes a snapshot of the game right at that point. close the scheduled game window and make me a Backup (File menu)

Jeff in Western WA :I see, in about 6th inning, Phils pitcher gets relived by Carton, to face Seaver, walks seaver, then Carton gets relived for my ledoff hitter? Odd as Carton would NOT be called on to pitch to a righty, no less MY opposing pitcher, a "fair" hitter at best...

dmbluke :email me the backup. and of course you can rejoin and continue the game

Jeff in Western WA :OK...it was a ways back but, might be a good "case study" I'll look for it, I remember it well.CM logic would/ could it be another patch???

dmbluke :sure, cm logic mods would work in a patch

Jeff in Western WA :tht's URGENT fix, CM logic is #1 talked about among the crowd, more logic= better...IMHO anyway...

dmbluke :cm logic is pretty tricky though because all the rules are so interrelated by fixing one thing i could end up breaking something else

Jeff in Western WA :understand, but 9c was so comprehensive compared to typical "patch"...so 9d is the talk of "until V10" which we know now is a ways off...

dmbluke :it's not my call to make on the scope of any release. probably end up being lots of little things but that's just my guess. As for deluxing the CPs, i'd say 1974-77 are the top priority simply because Retrosheet has PBP for all games.

Jeff in Western WA :Agree, how long does it take to do a season where retro has info...?

Spaceman :Ya know, I actually LIKE not having the splits

dmbluke :1973 and 72 are only missing a handful so we could guesstimate the missing L/R stats

Spaceman :I think it's actually more realistic

dmbluke :there's a few other seasons in the 1960's that are close to complete

Spaceman :I'll be ready for 1975 in a week or so

Jeff in Western WA :I do when playing a replay where I'm managing and looking at a player as a career, not a season of maybe 60 aB's against a lefty...say 1969 Luke, say '69, c'mon .please

dmbluke :retrosheet is missing a ton of games for that season unfortunately.40 games to be exact and that's a lot. 1963 & 64 are in the single digits of missing games

Jeff in Western WA :70?

dmbluke :1970 is missing 21 games

Jeff in Western WA :wow, surprising, I bet '71 is closer...

dmbluke :the problem with some of these seasons is that the missing games involve the same teams so that 21 in 1970 are all between the Braves, Padres, and Astros. that's a lot of games to be guesstimating. it wouldn't be so bad if the games were more spread out. 71 is missing 14 games

Jeff in Western WA :closer, 72?

dmbluke :'72 is only missing four games

Jeff in Western WA :ta da, I see that then soon after 74-77, isn't 73 already deluxed?? can't remember...

dmbluke :73 has transactions and lineups

dmbluke :one request that we get regularly is a way to have the engine use generic splits when playing a deluxe season

Spaceman :I like that request